Martin Bento ([info]explodedview) wrote,
@ 2004-02-03 12:39:00
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Kerry Beat Dean in New Hampshire by Only 1.5% When Computers Weren’t Doing the Counting
 

Kerry Beat Dean in New Hampshire by Only 1.5% When Computers Were Not Doing the Counting


 


In the New Hampshire Democratic Primary, exit polls, which are seldom far wrong, indicated a very close race. The final vote was not close. A close race would have constituted a win for Dean, given expectations. There is serious reason to be dubious of computerized vote counting systems (see Verified Voting or Black Box Voting for details). Such systems were used in New Hampshire, especially those of Diebold, the company that has attracted the most controversy, so I decided to analyze the New Hampshire Democratic primary vote in terms of who was doing the tabulation. According to the New Hampshire Secretary of State’s office there are three possibilities:
 


  • Some ballots are counted by Diebold machines.
  • Some ballots are counted by ES&S machines.
  • Some ballots are counted by hand.

 
Let me note that neither the Diebold nor the ES&S ballots lack a paper trail in this case. These are optical-scan systems, where the voter marks a paper ballot that is subsequently counted by computer. There is, then, the possibility of a recount, but only if the issue is forced, since the election was not considered close enough to mandate an automatic recount. Given the problems demonstrated with Diebold systems and the serious allegations made against ES&S, perhaps such a recount should be pursued. In any case, here are the vote totals and percentages for the big five candidates, grouped by vote tallying method (percentages are percentages of the big five vote, i.e., it does not include the minor candidates)).


 
VotingTechUsed Kerry Kperc Dean Dperc Edwards Eperc Clark Cperc Lieberman Lperc
Diebold 59421 40.1% 37589 25.4% 18334 12.4% 19119 12.9% 13549 9.2%
ES&S 5952 37.6% 4415 27.9% 1877 11.8% 2076 13.1% 1516 9.6%
Hand 19004 34.9% 18148 33.3% 6276 11.5% 7217 13.2% 3846 7.1%

 


To bring the matter into sharper focus, here are the percentages by which Kerry’s vote exceeded Dean’s, grouped by tallying method.


 
VotingTechUsed % Margin
Diebold 58.1%
ES&S 35.0%
Hand 4.7%




Given that Kerry won by all accounts, does this matter? Yes it does. Had Dean gotten close to winning, as low as he had been the week before, he would have gotten the momentum to remain competitive, but instead New Hampshire seems to have doomed him.  This may therefore go down as the pivotal election of this primary. Also, the election is not winner-take-all; delegates are assigned proportionally.

 
Is there any other explanation for the discrepancy? Well, the computerized systems are mostly used in the larger towns in New Hampshire. Can this be attributed to a rural preference for Dean? If  the sample is limited to towns with fewer than 20,000 voters, the results are but slightly different.


 
VotingTechUsed Kerry Kperc Dean Dperc Edwards Eperc Clark Cperc Lieberman Lperc
Diebold 43428 39.4% 29456 26.8% 13283 12.1% 14632 13.3% 9289 8.44%
ES&S 5952 37.6% 4415 27.9% 1877 11.9% 2076 13.1% 1516 9.57%
Hand 19004 34.9% 18148 33.3% 6276 11.5% 7217 13.2% 3846 7.05%




A dramatic rural preference for Dean would be odd, given that his primary demographic is youth, but odd or not, such is not present in the figures, at least not to the extent necessary to explain the data.


The Dean campaign has cause for a recount, in my opinion. Whether they have a legal case, I don’t know. I think it would be better if a suit demanding recount were brought by a third party, however,rather than the Dean campaign, even though they are the (possibly) offended party.


At the very least, the possibility should be investigated. Someone with access to lawyers should inquire whether the ballots are still available for recount and how long they should remain available, according to law.
 
 
 
 
 




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data source?
(Anonymous)
2004-02-04 01:56 am UTC (link)
Sir:

May I ask where you got your data?

Thank you.

- TI

(Reply to this)

Which machines in which towns? Data source?
(Anonymous)
2004-02-04 02:00 am UTC (link)

Could you tell us where you got this data?

I know NH politics well and if you could tell us which machines were used in which towns, it would be easy to tell if the results were "odd".

For example, you would expect Dean to do well in college towns, like Keene or Hannover. You'd expect Kerry to do well in the blue-collar Merrimack Valley cities like Nashua or Manchester. These are well, known, historical patterns.

Until we know which machines were in which towns, it's hard to say if you've found something interesting, or just a spurious correlation.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Which machines in which towns? Data source?
(Anonymous)
2004-02-04 02:22 am UTC (link)
Here are links to maps of voting systems used. The first should be the whole U.S. (you can click on a state) and the second should be to Vermont:

Election Map of Voting Systems
http://www.electionline.org/interactiveMap_result.jsp?state=NH&stateText=New%20Hampshire&topicText=Voting%20System%20Used&topic_string=22:votingsystemtypemain

VERMONT MAP:
http://www.electionline.org/interactiveMap_result.jsp?state=NH&stateText=New%20Hampshire&topicText=Voting%20System%20Used&topic_string=22:votingsystemtypemain

In addition, here's a link to CNN's results by town (they called them counties -- ??):

CNN's County-by-County Results
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/primaries/pages/counties/NH/index.html

Eloriel

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Which machines in which towns? Data source? - (Anonymous), 2004-02-04 02:30 am UTC
Re: Which machines in which towns? Data source? - (Anonymous), 2004-02-04 05:15 am UTC
Re: Which machines in which towns? Data source? - (Anonymous), 2004-02-08 01:25 pm UTC
Dem Bones - [info]shoutingboy, 2004-02-09 01:57 am UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-02-04 02:03 am UTC (link)

From the same NH guy as previous post.

Sorry I missed part of your comment. If the "excess" Kerry votes that you are worried about were in the cities, then yes, that is exactly what you would expect given historical patterns. Nothing surprising there. It's also what the exit polls showed, from what I've heard.

If you want good information on how different parts of the state vote differently in Democratic primaries, see the book Stormy Weather by Dante Scala, a political scientist at St. Anselm College in Manchester.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re:
[info]explodedview
2004-02-05 08:15 pm UTC (link)
Well, I subtracted the larger towns and it didn't change the results significantly, so I don't think this explanation holds up.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

account for absentees?
[info]bryguypgh
2004-02-04 04:41 am UTC (link)
I presume all the absentee ballots were counted by hand- is it possible that this explains the discrepancy? He seemed to be doing far better in the original results that consisted of only absentee ballots.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: account for absentees?
(Anonymous)
2004-02-04 09:58 am UTC (link)
no, what accounts for absentees is that they voted before Dean's campaign self-destructed.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: account for absentees? - (Anonymous), 2004-02-04 10:38 pm UTC
Sources
[info]explodedview
2004-02-04 04:43 am UTC (link)
My source for both the voting numbers and the machines used were the New Hampshire Secretary of State. The numbers are at this URL:

http://www.state.nh.us/sos/presprim%202004/dpressum.htm

Someone said this only covers the counties. That's because this is the cover page. To get the precinct totals, you click on the desired county at the bottom of the page. For the most part, "precinct" maps to town, though there are several towns with multiple wards.

My source for the voting machines used was provided as a link in the blog entry. It is also the New Hampshire SOS.

http://www.nh.gov/sos/HAVA/voting%20machines%20trade%20fair%20report.htm

I did the number crunching with a database. I'll be posting the code later, if there's interest.

Thank you for your responses.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Sources
(Anonymous)
2004-02-05 12:03 am UTC (link)
The link you cite as your source for the voting machine info goes to a "Voting Systems Trade Fair" page, which lists touchscreen vendors. There's nothing on the page to indicate which precincts are currently using which optical-scanning systems.

Any chance you could post a corrected link?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sources - [info]explodedview, 2004-02-05 08:00 pm UTC

(Anonymous)
2004-02-04 05:26 am UTC (link)
There won't be any recount, because Diebold machines don't leave a paper trail.

See my many posts about the evils of electronic voting collected here (http://www.dclawstudent.blogspot.com/2003_12_01_dclawstudent_archive.html#107186430674783243).

-Scott

P.S. As an aside, I doubt there was any tampering by Diebold (aligned with the GOP), mainly because they would favor facing Dean over Kerry in the general election.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

optical scanners leave paper trails, obviously.
(Anonymous)
2004-02-04 05:31 am UTC (link)
Diebold optical scanners leave a paper trail because that is what is counted... You are confusing optical scanners with touch screen (DRE) machines, which is a major point of the entire issue...

(Reply to this) (Parent)

To Scott: Dean Over Kerry? - (Anonymous), 2004-02-04 07:13 pm UTC
Re: - (Anonymous), 2004-02-04 10:45 pm UTC
Re: - (Anonymous), 2004-02-08 12:34 pm UTC
check out this thread (jan 28), with Excel workshet of data.
(Anonymous)
2004-02-04 05:32 am UTC (link)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=215244#215492

(Reply to this)

if you cannot read that thread, here is the link to dataset
(Anonymous)
2004-02-04 05:33 am UTC (link)
http://www.geocities.com/mrigurl

(Reply to this)

New Hampshire optical scan machines.
(Anonymous)
2004-02-04 07:33 am UTC (link)
Hi...Andy Stephenson here www.andystephenson.com New Hampshire was using firmware 1.92T on the Diebold machines. A version which was never certified. This in my estimation was a violation of FEC rules. I could be wrong on the last point...but not the first.

Andy Stephenson

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: New Hampshire optical scan machines.
(Anonymous)
2004-02-04 05:26 pm UTC (link)
The referenced analysis of voting patterns and machines has not been reviewed or confirmed by the New Hampshire Secretary of State. However, the location of smaller towns which often hand count ballots is a significant issue that should be factored into the analysis.

Accuvote optical scanning machines in New Hampshire rely on 1.92T firmware, a version that has been subjected to a large number of recounts. Under the law, all voting systems in New Hampshire must have a paper trail.

The Accuvote machines in service were purchased by New Hampshire towns from Global Election Systems, the predecessor of Diebold. The Federal Election Commission has no jurisdiction over the purchase and use of voting machines in New Hampshire.

Pursuant to New Hampshire Revised Statutes Annotated 656:40-43, local jurisdictions may purchase voting machines if they are approved by the New Hampshire Ballot Law Commission. Accuvote machines with firmware 1.92T are certified by the NH Ballot Law Commission. No other certifying authority is mentioned in this statute.


Anthony Stevens
Assistant Secretary of State
New Hampshire

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: New Hampshire optical scan machines. - [info]explodedview, 2004-02-09 09:04 pm UTC
gotch linked up.
(Anonymous)
2004-02-04 08:14 pm UTC (link)
good reporting.

i added u to the news area of my site.

http://www.scandidate.info

i have delegate counts, top donor lists hyperlinked, and more.

bring it on big media!

(Reply to this)


[info]bonovoxlvx
2004-02-04 09:18 pm UTC (link)
I am going through the numbers myself. If it checks out we will post the data on our website, and begin to inundate the media with this information, until someone puts us on the air. If nothing else we can bring it up in our ad campaign, but only if the proof is firm. Info on our site:
TruthandHope.org is a 527 group formed to take the fight directly to the party establishment in order to challenge its resistance to change. Our mission is to bring those in the movement together to form a cohesive voting block in order to influence not only the Presidential election, but also, all local and state elections throughout the country. We seek to develop and run advertising campaigns pushing the direct unflinching messages of truth about the mainly ‘flip/flop’ candidates of the Democratic party, and the messages of hope that Governor Dean brings with his plans to rebuild our party and our country.



Anyone following the campaign over the last year, will note that Governor Dean’s message, which is backed by legions of passionate supporters, has also now become the message of the establishment candidates. This is nowhere more obvious than in that of their anointed ‘front runner’ Senator Kerry. This shows our power. We can do more than just vote and influence voters. As a consolidated block, we can influence not only the nomination for our candidate but the party platform and in turn national dialogue and debate.



This is an opportunity for those who wish to give more to and for the cause, but who have already allocated their maximum $2000 contribution. This is an opportunity to locate and support businesses and services, which are sympathetic to our cause. We can use our collective purchasing power to support business owners who support us and to publicise the plain, spoken truths of all of the candidate’s records. By doing it in this way, we need not fear that Governor Dean’s campaign will be branded and smeared with the phrase ‘negative attack.’


Please visit our site @ www.truthandhope.org


(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2004-02-04 11:53 pm UTC (link)
It shouldn't come as any surprise that the hand-counted towns in New Hampshire favored Dean more than the machine-counted towns. Three of the four counties with the highest percentage of hand-counted ballots - Cheshire, Sullivan and Grafton - were won outright by Dean. (See below.) These three counties border on Vermont and are covered by a media market that would have included Governor Dean in its standard coverage over the past decade. It would have suprised me if these counties hadn't favored Dean over Kerry, when compared with the rest of the state.

Dean Kerry Difference
Cheshire 5,042 4,706 336
Sullivan 3,010 2,460 550
Grafton 6,486 5,004 1,482
Total 14,538 12,170 2,368

The other county with mostly hand-counted ballots - Carroll - went for Kerry, but not by a huge margin. Given its east central location, I would surmise that Carroll might be more responsive to the Boston media market.

Dean Kerry Difference
Carroll 2,391 2,934 543

In general, the towns that purchase voting machines tend to be the larger towns which are closer to Boston and are more a part of the Boston media market that has featured Kerry over the years. So why wouldn't Kerry do better in machine-counted towns?

It turns out that hand-counted ballots are not a very good control in this case.

There are many who could explain these voting patterns better than I. We in New Hampshire have become familiar with these patterns with over the years. There is nothing in these figures that seems out of the ordinary.

(Reply to this)

Something to corroborate this article
(Anonymous)
2004-02-05 12:05 am UTC (link)
A journal article form a professor from State University of New York at Buffalo. Worth the read.

http://www.truthtowel.com/vault/brave_new_world.pdf

(Reply to this)

probably not nefarious
(Anonymous)
2004-02-05 12:10 am UTC (link)
The pattern observed in the New Hampshire results is strongly related to population patterns. Manchester and Nashua, by far the largest cities in the state, are very conservative; it used to be that Manchester Dems were more conservative than its Republicans. The suburban areas like Derry and Londonderry are Boston bedroom communities, and other parts of Hillsborough, Strafford, and Rockingham Counties (the three most southeastern of the state's counties) are increasingly taking on that same character.

It may be the case that Diebold machines were used in Manchester and Nashua, but that's not the reason that those cities vote totals for Kerry were high. Voting machine patterns were nothing more than a "secondary association" mimicking the underlying voter preferences by geography.

PS. CNN was incorrect in calling its subsetted vote totals "counties". Those are definitely towns.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: probably not nefarious
(Anonymous)
2004-02-05 05:01 am UTC (link)
I thought Dean was more conservative on issues then kerry.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Truth about Kerry-Senator Cash and Kerry - (Anonymous), 2004-02-06 05:56 am UTC
NH Poll Watchers
[info]oekosjoe
2004-02-05 05:50 am UTC (link)
These discrepancies are all the more interesting because they may coincide with some district rules prohibiting poll watching - the first in my experience, and unconstitutional in jurisdictions I know. There were two different stories about why there were so few poll watchers from any group. One is that clerks in some counties - or towns or cities - prohibited poll watchers and were able to do so under New Hampshire law. The other is that a deal was crafted by DfA, Kerry, and other camps to keep every campaign out of the polls themselves. DfA then placed orange-capped volunteers to enable identified voters to "check in" and, then, later identify late voters for a last minute pull. It was clear on site that the orange hats did something, but no caller I knew ever got the numbers for a last minute pull, since the whole "check in" process was so incredibly sloppy and unreliable. Instead, we called the same lists redundantly and, by 4 pm and later, only got through to those who had already voted. Such calls were an incredible - but typical for DfA - waste of volunteer time and technology.

It would be very, very interesting to see if the discrepancies between Kerry and Dean correspond with BOTH Diebold and prohibited poll watching. IN ANY CASE, there are constitutional grounds to question the results of an election that occurred without outside observers, and there were many, many polls where observers were prohibited.

(Reply to this)

Comparing votes across machine types (part I)
(Anonymous)
2004-02-05 09:43 am UTC (link)
As previous writers have noted above, there is are plausible reasons for why the preferences of voters in municipalities with handcounts may systematically differ from those with machine tabulations. I think an analysis which brings evidence to bear on those differences would be very useful.

It is also possible to take another approach to shed light on the issue of whether there was some systematic irregularity in the machine voting technology (e.g., manipulation of machines, biased ballot design) which affected the recording/tabulation of voter preferences.

In particular, municipalities have a certain amount of discretion over choosing their own voting technology. For example, in Rockingham, there are neighboring Deerfield, Northwood, and Nottingham with the Accuvote, Optech and handcount respectively. Although machine use is much higher in the south NH, it might be useful to take advantage of the heterogeneity of machine types among neighboring municipalities. What follows is an initial and quite simple analysis based on this idea.

Let me be clear about the key assumption of my analysis,

Assumption: within the set of township which have adopted non-handcount voting technology, the selection of manufacturer (ESS or Diebold) is independent of voter preferences for Democratic candidates.

If you do not find this assumption plausible, then you are unlikely to find what follows persuasive. I would be interested to hear why this assumption would not be incorrect.

Hypothesis: one type of machine systematically suffers from an irregularity that causes a relative gain for Kerry at the expense of Dean.

As previously mentioned, this could be because of tampering or some unintended aspect of the ballot design. Why one machine type? It is
more likely to be setup/maintained by the same group of people. Different machines also have different ballot designs. I could not
find specific examples of the ballots used and would appreciate seeing examples if available. Here are some examples from CA:

http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/voting_systems/global.htm
http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/voting_systems/essoptech.htm

Alternatively, why might machines across manufacturers be equally suspect? Machines might still be to blame if subsets of the
population systematically had more difficulty using machines (and in this case this subset disproportionately intended to vote for Dean).
Difficulties could lead to increased spoilage rates, or greater probability of accidental voting for candidates adjacent on the
ballot. These are valid concerns, and helps to focus our attention on the types of specific alternative analysis which should be pursued.

(results follow in part II, there is a word limit on these posts; yes I wish I had time to make this more concise too.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Comparing votes across machine types (part I)
[info]explodedview
2004-02-06 06:45 pm UTC (link)
Professor Wand,

Thank you for contributing this analysis. I'm going to have to spend some time to try to evaluate it. However, a couple of things jump out at me.

1) You give the proportions for the three types of counting used - Accuvote(Diebold), Optech(ES&S), and hand. This list is exhaustive, so the 3 numbers should add up to 1.0, give or take a hair for rounding errors, no? They don't, you know. The highest is Belknap, which adds up to .8, the lowest Carroll, which adds up to .55, and the average is .708. Do proportions mean something different in multinomial outlier analysis than they do in regular arithmetic?


2) The question you're addressing is not the question before us. It's possible that someone who could hack one system could hack another, so the primary question is not how the Diebold votes compare to ES&S, but rather how Diebold and ES&S, individually and severally (since it is also possible that a hacker could break one but not the other system), compare to the hand-counted votes. Therefore, I think it's Pr(h=a) that is most important, not Pr(a=o). You do provide this number, but don't comment on it. Since I don't yet understand multinomial outlier analysis, I can't evaluate it myself.

3) Your legend conflates municipalities with counties, though I don't know whether this affects the results (I would guess not).

4) I wonder whether this mode of analysis could detect a vote tamperer who was cognizant of it. Suppose, for example, that you, as someone who understands multinomial outlier analysis, had control of the computers counting the votes. Could you doctor the results in such a way that MOA could not detect the alteration? Can it be proved that this is possible or impossible?

Again, thanks for this contribution.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Comparing votes across machine types (part I) - [info]mark_gubrud, 2004-02-08 06:48 pm UTC
Re: Comparing votes across machine types (part I) - [info]explodedview, 2004-02-08 10:58 pm UTC
Re: Comparing votes across machine types (part I) - [info]explodedview, 2004-02-09 08:10 pm UTC
Comparing votes across machine types (part II)
(Anonymous)
2004-02-05 09:46 am UTC (link)
Data: The results that follow are based on data which were kindly posted at

http://www.geocities.com/mrigurl

Machine data coding was supplemented (and a few changes made) with data about specific machines used by each municipality,

http://www.nh.gov/sos/voting%20machines.htm

I have posted the csv dataset I used

http://wand.stanford.edu/elections/NH2004data2b.csv

I note the vote data is slightly different from the data posted at

http://www.nh.gov/sos/presprim%202004/dpressum.htm

future analysis would likely use the current official numbers. To undertake a more sophisticated analysis one would like to have for
each township:

- vote data, 2000 primary
- machine type data, 2000 primary
- media market indicators
- rural/urban indicators

and evaluate the results on the basis of a multinomial outlier detection model.

Results: The following table analyzes vote proportions within municipalities by voting technology, with proportions calculated as
Dean / (Dean+Kerry). The following table is not that well formated therefore I have also posted the table at:

http://wand.stanford.edu/elections/nh_primary04_table.pdf













hand accu optech Pr(h=a) Pr(a=o) N Nh Na No
Belknap 0.30 0.24 0.26 0.34 0.19 4630 88 2432 2110
Carroll 0.27 0.28 NA 0.69 NA 4024 2174 1850 NA
Cheshire 0.31 0.32 NA 0.61 NA 6889 3263 3626 NA
Coos 0.29 0.23 0.25 0.00 0.64 3352 1305 1913 134
Grafton 0.28 0.26 0.23 0.05 0.29 6849 3181 3342 326
Hillsborough 0.29 0.23 0.22 0.00 0.20 32503 2886 27146 2471
Merrimack 0.26 0.24 0.23 0.01 0.63 13791 3306 10014 471
Rockingham 0.26 0.23 0.22 0.03 0.20 25670 1085 19405 5180
Strafford 0.26 0.24 0.24 0.27 0.86 10684 1161 8989 534
Sullivan 0.20 0.20 0.24 1.00 0.27 3091 2553 257 281


Legend:

hand - proportion handcount
accu - proportion accuvote
optech - proportion optech
Pr(h=a) - chi^2 test of no association, (hand,accu)x(kerry,dean)
Pr(a=o) - chi^2 test of no association, (accu,optech)x(kerry,dean)
N - number of votes Dean+Kerry in municipality
Nh - number of votes Dean+Kerry in municipality -- hand
Na - number of votes Dean+Kerry in municipality -- accuvote
No - number of votes Dean+Kerry in municipality -- optech

Pr(a=o) is the key value and we can not reject the null hypothesis that there is no association between machine and votes, in any
municipality.

Conclusions:

There is no significant differences across machine manufacturers. This is reassuring, diminishing the likelihood of systematic biases due to tampering. It is also somewhat weaker evidence that the ballot design was not the issue. I certainly do not wish to even suggest that this is exhaustive or precludes further study of the allegations. I think it is great the amount of attention that is increasingly paid to the administration of elections and I hope that, based on a collection of sound evidence and careful analysis, we can detect problems and correct them.


Jonathan Wand
Assistant Professor
Department of Political Science
Stanford University


(Reply to this)

Voting irregularities in NH
(Anonymous)
2004-02-05 01:37 pm UTC (link)
I have been concerned about the liklihood of such voter irregularities since way before the election. Newsweek ran an article concerning the strong support of the CEO of Diebold for Bush and his assurances to Bush that he would deliver the election to him.( He did not explain how) These electronic machines have been cited in other articles as being highly susceptible to rigging. I would certainly endorse an investigation and a recount- the sooner the better.

(Reply to this)

Skull and Bones
(Anonymous)
2004-02-06 04:46 am UTC (link)
Kerry is Skull and Bones thats why he's in front now.

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/skull_and_bones_video_part_1.html
http://www.propagandamatrix.com/skull_and_bones_video_part_2.html

(Reply to this)

NH Vote Tally Discrepency
(Anonymous)
2004-02-06 05:48 am UTC (link)
Has anybody forwarded this data to Black-Box Voting?

Maybe THEY should be the "third party" to file the complaint and get a recount.

(Reply to this)

Not Just Anybody
(Anonymous)
2004-02-06 08:49 am UTC (link)
Thank you for this thoughtful article. While it doesn't amount to a definitive answer, it raises enough to validate calls for an investigation.

I think we should stop saying "Anybody but Bush". We need to make it clear that we want a genuine REFORMER.

Joel Sax
http://paxnortona.notfrisco2.com

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Not Just Anybody
[info]prairieweather
2004-02-06 02:23 pm UTC (link)
Yes. What we don't like isn't just embodied in the person of GWB. Congress, the media -- they're as much a part of the corruption as Bush is. Who's the most to blame? Diebold? Those who accept money from Diebold? Those who turn a blind eye to the problem? Here's the bad news: the problem is us, who we choose to support with our consumer dollars, who we choose to listen to and be influenced by, who we don't bother to go to the polls to elect or keep out of office.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

You should issue a retraction
[info]mark_gubrud
2004-02-06 05:50 pm UTC (link)
Dear Martin Bento,

Martin, Jonathan Wand has posted a reply to your original post which clearly demonstrates that your anomalous results can be accounted for in terms of geographical variations in voter preference, possibly but not necessarily rural-vs.-urban. When this effect is properly controlled for by comparing within municipalities, Prof. Wand found no statistically significant bias due to the use of the optical scan machines. I suggest you study his reports and contact him if you do not yet understand his analysis.

You argue that you tested the geographical hypothesis by eliminating towns over 20,000. However, your own numbers show that all this did was to eliminate about a quarter of the Diebold-counted votes. Since these votes favored Kerry more than the others, it is no wonder that removing a quarter of them caused the results to move somewhat in favor of Dean, but since you only removed a quarter, it is no wonder that "the results are but slightly different." Your results are fully consistent with the geographical hypothesis. If you think about it a bit, you may realize that you cannot reliably control for geographical variation as long as you lump the statewide results together.

Also, you should realize that it is unscientific for you to magnify the anomaly you saw by taking the difference between the Dean and Kerry votes and dividing by the smaller of the two. Suppose an ad agency interviews 10 people, and finds that 6 like Coke while 4 prefer Pepsi. Not satisfied with a statistically insignificant 20% difference in popularity, an ad man following your procedure would come up with "Coke is 50% more popular than Pepsi!" That's more dramatic, but just as statistically invalid.

By now, your findings are undoubtedly oozing through the internet as evidence that Kerry is the beneficiary of some Skull & Bony conspiracy to control the world. This sort of thing can be far more damaging, especially to voter turnout among the disaffected, than you might think. So frankly, you have done some (small) damage to our hopes of unseating Resident Shrub in the Fall. It doesn't seem as if that was your intention, but the damage is done, and I think it is your responsibility to try to repair it as well as you can.

Please admit that you made a mistake, and issue a clear retraction. Given the results posted by Prof. Wand, it is clear that we have no evidence of any bias due to the use of optical scan in New Hampshire. It is also important to point out that in this case a voter-verified paper record of votes cast exists, which makes any conspiracy especially unlikely. If there were valid evidence of a possible bias due to the machines, a partial recount would be enough to reveal this. But as of this time, no such evidence exists. I think you should admit that, and do your best to stop this rumor before it becomes an entrenched legend.

Best wishes,

Mark Avrum Gubrud
University of Maryland Peace Forum, and
Physics Dept., University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20740

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: You should issue a retraction
(Anonymous)
2004-02-09 02:07 am UTC (link)
Sorry, Dr. Gubrud, but your call for a retraction is uncalled for. When researching in Social Sciences as opposed to Physical Sciences (such as Physics) there is a great deal of information that can be either exaggerated or diminished by "slicing and dicing" the data. Dr. Wand's analysis does not necessarily preclude Martin's analysis. The solution is for Martin to stick to what he believes and improve his methodology to check for robustness and possible flaws in Dr. Wand's analysis.

A partial recount would be low-cost and would lay to rest any "Skull & Bones conspiracy theory." Such cost is definitely warranted considering the stakes we are dealing with her. If Martin retracts his statements, then a partial recount will never occur.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Christopher J. Marquette, PhD
Dept. of Management
University of Pittsburgh - Greensburg

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: You should issue a retraction - [info]mark_gubrud, 2004-02-09 02:24 am UTC
Re: You should issue a retraction - (Anonymous), 2004-02-10 01:59 am UTC
Re: You should issue a retraction - [info]mark_gubrud, 2004-02-10 04:57 pm UTC
Re: You should issue a retraction - (Anonymous), 2004-11-13 12:00 pm UTC
Re: You should issue a retraction - (Anonymous), 2004-11-13 06:30 pm UTC
Any exit polls I can hang my hat on?
(Anonymous)
2004-02-06 10:23 pm UTC (link)
Dear Martin Bento,

The following statement in your analysis has me stumped, “In the New Hampshire Democratic Primary, exit polls, which are seldom far wrong, indicated a very close race.” I am looking for New Hampshire Primary exit poll results that reflect a close race, but cannot find anything I can hang my hat on.

There were some exit polls conducted for the National Election Pool, a media consortium of (CBS/NBC/ABC/CNN/FOX/AP) by Mitofsky International and Edison Media Research. On January 28, 2004, the New York Times reported that it relied on interviews with 1848 voters in 90 randomly selected precincts across New Hampshire. However, the January 28 report omitted the very totals that this message asserts exist. The survey I have seen only explained in percentage terms why people might have voted for the various candidates. We are on the lookout for the data set with exit poll totals for each candidate that this message mentions, so, if you or anyone has it, please post the information and let us all know where to find it.

For now, that leaves us with the tracking polls to compare with the actual results. The University of New Hampshire Survey Center at
http://www.unh.edu/survey-center/
published a tracking poll on the day before the Primary which showed 38% for Kerry, 26% for Dean, 14% for Edwards and 12% for Clark. As you know, this is fairly consistent with the actual results. Apparently, Gallup and Marist College had similar results in their tracking surveys.

We are confident that the official New Hampshire Presidential Primary results are accurate and reflect the will of the people. We have not reviewed and cannot confirm any other analysis done to date. However, we strongly encourage rigorous statistical analysis of results. Apart from the need to understand voting patterns, the election process deserves scrutiny and benefits from it.

When you examine a statistical analysis of the New Hampshire Primary, please make sure it controls for location and other key variables. The towns that use voting machines tend to be the large ones that are close to Boston and the Massachusetts media market. As one might expect, the hand counted towns tend to be smaller, farther away from Boston and nearer to Vermont. The Connecticut Valley (on the Vermont-New Hampshire border) media and Boston media would have covered John Kerry and Howard Dean quite differently in recent years. Perhaps as a result, all three counties on the Vermont border and south of the White Mountains actually voted for Dean over Kerry in the Presidential Primary, even though Kerry won the state by a fairly large margin.

Any voting machine software is potentially subject to tampering. We believe our machines are less subject to tampering partly because those involved in the process know they would have the greatest chance of getting caught in our state. Due to our laws and traditions, New Hampshire has more recounts than any other state. Our Secretary of State, William Gardner, has recounted over 300 races, including some statewide races, in his term of office. In 2000, our office recounted 32 races involving 137 candidates. In 2002, we recounted 13 races involving 83 candidates. It is not unusual to recount one quarter of the ballots in the state in one election year. We have recounted entire Presidential Primary races in the past.

In our state, people have become accustomed to recounts, and all participants – voters and winning and losing candidates - walk away more confident as a result. Our law requiring a voter verified paper trail enables this process to occur.

To further reduce the likelihood of tampering, the law requires that, prior to each election, all towns conduct voting machine testing. The Secretary of State prints and marks a specified number of test ballots that have been filled out in a realistic manner using a wide variety of combinations. The test numbers generated by the towns are reported to the Secretary of State and checked for accuracy.

Anthony Stevens
Assistant Secretary of State
New Hampshire

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Any exit polls I can hang my hat on?
[info]explodedview
2004-02-07 12:21 am UTC (link)
I was referring to the exit polls cited in Daily Kos, a website focusing primarily on election issues. The URL is:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/1/27/185137/760

Do I understand that the Secretary of State's office doesn't have exit poll information archived locally? Or that the sources do not provide it on request? Is that usually how things work?

Don't get me wrong. Your office has a fine reputation, and I do not intend to cast aspersions upon it. I deeply appreciate your taking this issue seriously to respond and look into it, and I admit that there may be nothing in it. I brought up what seemed to me suspicious totals to get the discussion going, and in that I have succeeded. I haven't yet been broadcasting this all over the net (though some have asked me to) because I want to consider other input.

That said, I did make some attempt to factor out population issues. Location was something about which I had no info at the time. I'll see if I can come up with a reasonable way to factor it in.

Now I would like to ask you a question. A source whose credibility I cannot evaluate told me that the programming of election machines for specific elections was often done by different companies than actually produce the machine. I mean programming in the candidiates in a specific race, etc. Is this the case in New Hampshire? Is it, to your knowledge, the case anywhere in the United States?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Any exit polls I can hang my hat on? - [info]mark_gubrud, 2004-02-07 02:42 am UTC
Not what I see in Wand's analysis - (Anonymous), 2004-02-07 07:42 pm UTC
Re: Not what I see in Wand's analysis - [info]prairieweather, 2004-02-08 07:18 pm UTC
Re: So all this got started because of 1 PM warm-up polls? - (Anonymous), 2004-02-11 10:34 am UTC
Re: Any exit polls I can hang my hat on? - (Anonymous), 2004-02-07 02:37 pm UTC
what????
(Anonymous)
2004-02-07 04:27 am UTC (link)
I believe this is a serious discussion, and I would appreciate it if the person from the previous post would let those of us interested continue in peace. Given the publicized problems with voting machines, no one even needs conspiracy theories to be greatly concerned.
Jan

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: what????
[info]prairieweather
2004-02-07 03:27 pm UTC (link)
What is it that so disturbs some about independence of thought? Yes, there is a proliferation of rumor on the internet, but it is created by rumor mongers, not by the kind of person who has posted his tentative, thoughtful findings in his journal. What harm can come of stringent examination of the voting process? Are we well served by the kinds of frauds, errors, and bureaucratic lapses we witnessed in the Florida vote count in 2000?

PS: The fact that thousands and thousands of American voters have become activists, are questioning authority, is the best thing to have come out of a bad period of our political and social history.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Okay, let's get this straight
[info]mark_gubrud
2004-02-08 12:51 am UTC (link)
People have short attention spans, so let me start with the conclusion:

There is no evidence here of any election fraud. Martin Bento had no basis to say his results indicate that "computers" favored Kerry over Dean. He leaped to an unwarranted inference, based on a deeply flawed analysis, did not apply any statistical tests of significance, and even reported his results in an artificially exaggerated form, Madison Avenue-style.

Now, I was a bit careless in my wording before. That's probably because so much is at stake in this election. I assume Mr. Bento is not out to help George W. Bush. But he really could send Karl Rove a bill for services rendered; this has to be worth a few thousand votes in November, at least. Even if Martin will take responsibility and admit his error.

All of Bento's results, and all of the facts before us, are fully consistent with a purely geographical effect. Dean was more popular relative to Kerry in rural areas and further from Boston, as one New Hampshire resident explained here. Kerry was preferred more strongly in urban areas and downstate. We have no reason to think Bento's results reflect anything more than that.

Bento, lumping all statewide results together, showed that there was a significant correlation between preference for Kerry over Dean and the use of optical scan. But his results also indicated there was a significant correlation between preference and which optical scanner was in use.

Wand showed that when you control for regional variations, there is no significant effect with respect to which type of scanner. Right away, that should tell you there is a problem with Bento's methodology: it produced an anomalous effect that went away when additional controls were imposed.

However, Wand's results still showed a significant correlation between Dean/(Dean+Kerry) and hand vs. optical. This is consistent with a geographical effect, since within each region there are precincts which are rural as well as those which are urban, and it is the urban ones which tend to use the optical scanners.

Wand controlled for regional variation, but not for density variation within regions. His results indicate that any difference in the results with the two types of scanners can be attributed to correlations between regional variations in voter preference and regional variations in the type of scanner used. Such correlations would be expected to exist due to random variation alone.

To reiterate, Wand did not control for rural-vs.-urban differences within a region. Therefore it is to be expected, on the rural-vs.-urban hypothesis, that there would still be a correlation between optical scan vs. hand and relative preference for Dean and Kerry. And that's what his results show.

Bento claimed he could reject a rural-vs.-urban hypothesis on the basis of a run in which he eliminated towns over 20,000. This is not a valid test! Why 20,000? Why not some other number? Setting a different cutoff would produce different results. What really needs to be done is to test for a correlation between precinct population density and voting patterns, for a given counting method, instead of just cutting the sample into two groups with an arbitrary cutoff.

But in fact, eliminating the largest towns moved Bento's results for the Diebold votes (which apparently included all the towns over 20,000) in the direction of Dean. Thus, Bento's test tends to confirm that there is an effect due to population density.

When you add that all up, you are left with the conclusion that there is nothing here which can be taken as evidence for a vote rigging hypothesis. The fact that there is a correlation is consistent with such a hypothesis, but it is also consistent with a geographical (regional variation PLUS local density) hypothesis. Since the geographical effect was to be expected, Bento's results cannot be considered evidence of election fraud.

But that won't stop the allegation, especially as packaged so nicely by Bento, with the artificially exaggerated numbers that "bring the matter into sharper focus" and the misleading argument about towns over 20,000, from wafting its redolent way down the information sewer main and into the collective delerium.

Your turn, Martin.

Mark Avrum Gubru

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Okay, let's get this straight
[info]explodedview
2004-02-08 10:49 pm UTC (link)
r. Gudron,

You stated the following:

"However, Wand's results still showed a significant correlation between Dean/(Dean+Kerry) and hand vs. optical. This is consistent with a geographical effect, since within each region there are precincts which are rural as well as those which are urban, and it is the urban ones which tend to use the optical scanners."

So what you're saying is that Wand's results do in fact find a correlation between votes counted by computer and votes for Kerry, even correcting for geography. That is a fact before us. You assume that if he had accounted for population density within regions, this correlation would vanish. That, however, is just an assertion, as far as I can see. There is nothing in this world you cannot prove if you reserve to yourself the right to make up facts. Indeed, even if further research confirms your hypothesis, you are wrong, because you stated that *this study* disproves the correlation, and it in fact found a correlation.

I never claimed the difference between Diebold and ES&S was significant, so that is just a straw man. Nor did I claim that the voting discrepancy was entirely the result of computer counting, so that fact that other factors are significant in itself doesn't matter; it only matters whether the other factors are sufficient to explain fully the discrepancy. For that matter, all I did claim was that the results justified further investigation (apparently Wand agreed since he investigated further) and could justify recourse to validation through a partial or complete recount.

You further accuse me of manipulating statistics by expressing Kerry's margin as a percentage of Dean's. First of all, I used both metrics. Initially, and in the title, I compared Kerry and Dean as percentages of the total vote (of the big five, as stated). Then I did a head-to-head comparison. In both cases, I was perfectly clear about what I was comparing and later released richly-commented code to remove any ambiguities. There is nothing misleading in this.

Performing head-to-head comparisons by expressing a margin as a percentage of the lower quantity is perfectly conventional usage. For example, here is The Economist comparing the US and European drug industries

http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=2388708

"With the transatlantic shift in R&D [in context, from Europe to America - Martin] goes many high-value jobs, as well as a greater share of the industry's profits. According to Bain, America created 42% more high-value pharmaceutical jobs in 1999-2001, and the trend is continuing."

Does the "42% more" that America has in that sentence mean a) that America had 142% of Europe's total pharmaceutical job creation, or b) that America's edge over Europe in this consisted of 42% of global pharmaceutical job creation? The answer is clearly a). Note that the Economist doesn't even explicitly say this; it doesn't have to, this usage is so conventional, the meaning is obvious.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Okay, let's get this straight - [info]mark_gubrud, 2004-02-09 01:47 am UTC
Re: Okay, let's get this straight - [info]explodedview, 2004-02-08 10:49 pm UTC
Re: Okay, let's get this straight - [info]prairieweather, 2004-02-09 02:53 pm UTC
Re: Okay, let's get this straight - (Anonymous), 2004-02-09 01:02 pm UTC
Re: Okay, let's get this straight - [info]mark_gubrud, 2004-02-09 03:16 pm UTC
Re: Okay, let's get this straight - [info]prairieweather, 2004-02-09 04:23 pm UTC
Re: Okay, let's get this straight - [info]mark_gubrud, 2004-02-09 05:54 pm UTC
Re: Okay, let's get this straight - [info]explodedview, 2004-02-09 07:46 pm UTC
Re: Okay, let's get this straight - [info]mark_gubrud, 2004-02-09 08:19 pm UTC
Re: Okay, let's get this straight - [info]explodedview, 2004-02-10 05:39 am UTC
What to do now - [info]explodedview, 2004-02-10 05:45 am UTC
Burden of proof - [info]mark_gubrud, 2004-02-10 04:23 pm UTC
Re: Okay, let's get this straight - [info]prairieweather, 2004-02-09 10:12 pm UTC
Re: Okay, let's get this straight - [info]mark_gubrud, 2004-02-09 11:05 pm UTC

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